Comments on But, I am a Liberal!: Get Your Pointing Finger Ready

Great post, Roland!

2009-04-13T10:39:00.000-05:00

Great post, Roland!

I know one should never say never, but the idea th...

2009-04-13T08:22:00.000-05:00

I know one should never say never, but the idea that the U.S. is (or could be) like Rwanda is ridiculous. We live in an advanced democratic economy with a wide array of media options. How many radio and tv stations are there in Rwanda? What is the average educational level of media consumers in Rwanda compared to the U.S.? etc. etc. etc.

Even at the height of the Great Depression, where you had people like Father Coughlin blaming Jews for the economic situation, we never experienced anything close to the levels of violence that Rwanda went through. And despite what some crackpots on AM and Internet talk radio may claim, the situation today is not nearly as dire.

Another thing, nobody (or very, very, few people) are being "brainwashed" by these sorts of media. In a free society like ours, the consumers of media are largely self-selected. In other words, people are listening and/or watching this crap because the hosts are telling them things they already believe. That's the case for Fox News, Pacifica, "truther" websites, etc.

There will always be people who blame media and entertainment--whether talk radio, tv, movies, video games or certain types of music--for their violent acts but the American public (and our juries) don't fall for it. I remember families blaming heavy metal bands like Judas Priest for violent acts their family members committed, then it was punk, then it was hip-hop/rap. These cases went nowhere.

Roland, thought you might be interested in this piece by Charles Blow. Not sure why the NYT thinks their graphic-arts expert is competent to address these issues:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/opinion/04blow.html

I agree that the type of rhetoric people like Glen...

2009-04-10T06:54:00.000-05:00

I agree that the type of rhetoric people like Glenn Beck employ could eventually lead to a more violent position within society, but at this moment I don’t think he has gotten anywhere close to that level, even if I find the things he says buffoonish and wrong. Alex Jones is another issue entirely, but he is far from the mainstream, and I believe the people who really listen to what that man has to say are disturbed to begin with. I will also admit I don’t watch Beck’s program often, so I don’t know the ins and outs of what goes on there.

Part of my problem with this argument against Beck is that it is similar to the one used against Obama and his “socialist” policies. A lot has been made of Obama being some Manchurian communist that is going to destroy America from within the highest office (something many people had to say about Bush and all those “Trotskyite Neocons” as well – who would have thought the commies would be so successful in co-opting both parties?), and that type of language is obviously overblown and childish in its application of what those ideas actually represent. But it isn’t without some truth, and by that I mean Obama has been moving the United States closer to a European social democracy model than was previously thought imaginable (especially by conservatives). In the same way a lot of the criticisms made of neo-conservatism and the Bush administration are ill informed and simplistic, there still remains a shred of truth in their larger argument (I believe the Bush administration’s foreign policy was a significant departure from past policies). There was reason for those in favor of the previous foreign policy arraignment to be fearful and disparaging to the new one, and I feel the same way about Glen Beck and other right wingers who speak like him. They have good reason to be fearful of the Obama administration, and while I disagree with the reason for their alarm, I don’t think it is crazy when they take to the airwaves to make their case against him and his policies.

Roland - I mostly agree with this, although I have...

2009-04-09T06:55:00.000-05:00

Roland - I mostly agree with this, although I have a much higher opinion of Andrew despite thinking he's wrong on this. Much as I despise talk radio, it's influence on people's personal behavior towards others is usually pretty minimal. That said, though, I think you're too dismissive of the notion that people like Glenn Beck could eventually succeed in brainwashing people into murderers if they ratcheted their rhetoric even more - the role of talk radio in the Rwanda genocide is something that cannot be pooh-poohed, for instance. Insane as Beck is, I don't think he's at 1994 Hutu Power radio - but he's moving ever closer by the day. And we should recognize that just as low-information liberal voters too often rely on Jon Stewart for their news, low-information conservative voters too often rely on talk show hosts for theirs.

I couldn't agree more. Nothing is worse than alar...

2009-04-08T13:07:00.000-05:00

I couldn't agree more. Nothing is worse than alarmist hysteria, no matter what side of the political spectrum they fall on.

"I do remember what the loony right was saying bac...

2009-04-08T09:34:00.000-05:00

"I do remember what the loony right was saying back in the Clinton years, but since it was before the internet age and my interest in these movements, I must say that I did not pay a great deal of attention to what they were saying outside of what was reported in the mainstream media."

I used to work for an "alternative" book distributor and we carried everything from "Behold a Pale Horse" and "The Turner Diaries" to every book written by Ward Chruchill and Chomsky.

But my first real contact with these groups occurred at an event organized by a radical left community project I was affiliated with (a pirate radio station that will remain nameless).

The station covered an event on "Gulf War Syndrome" and all the presenters were anti-NWO gun-rights types who went on and on about FEMA camps and the illuminati. I asked some of the organizers, "why the heck are we covering this event? these people are total right-wing nuts!" They replied, "anyone who hates the government is on our side" or some similar nonsense. That really led me to reevaluate my relationship with the station and I quit a short while after.

I do remember what the loony right was saying back...

2009-04-07T20:57:00.000-05:00

I do remember what the loony right was saying back in the Clinton years, but since it was before the internet age and my interest in these movements, I must say that I did not pay a great deal of attention to what they were saying outside of what was reported in the mainstream media.

I check out Alex Jones’ Infowars website from time to time to see what that crowd is going on about, and its surprising how little they deviate from the old (and sometimes timeless) conspiracies about the Illuminate and such. That’s the power of a conspiracy theory I assume; it doesn’t have to stand up to scrutiny and facts, it just adapts to fit whatever the situation is at the time in question.

While I don’t blame Alex Jones for the Pittsburgh police murders (the gunman apparently frequented Infowars), I do believe the kind of people who believe in the things Alex Jones does are generally unstable people. A broad assessment for sure, but if one really believes some secret cabal of people secretly controls everything in the world (and believe this based on the flimsiest and weakest evidence imaginable), something is not completely right with said individual.

I would also like to see a breakaway centrist minded party, but like you, I don’t see it as likely. And since I no longer have an interest in working to build a third party in the United States, I find it best to push for influence in the Republican and Democratic parties simultaneously.

“[P]ortions of the Right have shown their true par...

2009-04-07T10:19:00.000-05:00

“[P]ortions of the Right have shown their true paranoid colors as of late (with talk of Obama concentration camps being built and the like).”

Back in the Clinton years the paranoid right (survivalists, separatists, fascists, etc.) was talking about FEMA concentration camps, black helicopters in the night, the government coming to take away your guns, the same things they are saying today. It’s like a broken record with these people.

“More importantly, moderate Republicans and conservatives need to put a large chasm between themselves and individuals who peddle fringe nonsense.”

I’d like to see Democrats and Republicans move closer to what used to be called “the Vital Center” but given the politics of the moment I do not see it happening any time soon.

Back in 2004, Michael Totten suggested that the “neos” of the two parties break away to form their own (The Neo-Centrist Alliance”):

“Sometimes I wish the neos could form their own party: the neo-liberals and neo-conservatives against the Democrats and the Republicans. Not gonna happen, I know. But that is the "party" I feel like I belong to these days.”